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israel vs. lebanon: body count

July 31, 2006 at · Filed under middle east, politics

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coffin

gorillasushi sent me a link to a site that tries to illustrate the difference in casualties between israel and lebanon. i assume moiz syed was trying to show the imbalance between the losts (btw, i didn't check into the accuracy of the numbers, but it looks about right - taken from the BBC).

i think it is nor surprising that there is such a discrepancy. this is not a conflict between equals. israel has much more fire power and capability to inflict damage. in that sense the israeli response is indeed using "restraint" as requested by the US (i guess restraint is a relative term..)

i think the following point should be made over and over again. it is important to make the distinction between the target of the attacks. while the hezbollah is aiming its rockets at civilian population, with the intent to cause civilian deaths, israel is directing its power at military targets and infrastructure (which israel stopped doing, and i thought was a mistake), and is trying to avoid collateral damage (as the Qana incident shows israel has nothing to gain and all to lose from civilian casualties). 

i think israel will be willing to live with the PR disadvantage of less casualties, vs the alternative..

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Firas said,

July 31, 2006 @

have ever opened a map of the region?
even if this phase will continue the jewes will be soon gone.
we have much greater numbers of people.

The Real Republican said,

July 31, 2006 @

The above comment says it all. Muslims and supporters of Hezbollah are the greatest haters this earth has ever seen. They’re committed to the death of all western society and can’t understand why Israel and America fights back.

your mom said,

July 31, 2006 @

Both comments says it all, those who stereotype and do not understand the history of this conflict and apply to the events of today have this skewed brainwashed view of what is going on, on both sides. It is an asinine comment to say the Jews will soon be gone. I’m sorry to disappoint you but Israel and Jews in the region are there to stay. But it is equally ignorant to say “Muslims and supports of Hezballah are the greatest haters this earth has ever seen.”
I know many western educated, moderate Muslims and there are more of them than the extremists. They do not hate, they do not blindly accuse one side or the other. They condone violence as much as the next person, if not more because they are unfairly profiled.
Israel is acting like a bully, period, and America is being meek and letting Israel do as she pleases. Israel is trying to avoid civilian casualties?? Explain the orders to the citizens of southern Lebanon to leave immediately because their villages will be bombed to nothing and as they are desperately fleeing, Israeli “precision bombing” is hitting the roads they are using to flee killing many. Oh the UN post bombing was an accident by Israel. Right, because the 10 phone calls 6 hours before the bombing happened telling Israel to stop bombing so close to the post wasn’t enough to be careful. Very much an accident. Just like Qana, the building with 40 some odd children sleeping had missiles in them and militants.
I AM a supporter of Hezballah because I believe what the Israeli government is doing and has been doing is wrong.
As important as it is to know what each side is targeting, it is just as important if not more to understand WHY and to understand the history of Israel, the region, and Hezballah in the least 70+ years.

avneron said,

July 31, 2006 @

the orders to the civilian population to evacuate southern lebanon is exactly an example of israel trying to avoid civilian casualties. hezbollah “heros” are hiding in villages among civilians, which is a smart tactic, but i would argue its morality.

what in your opinion is the value israel gains by killing civilians?! or killing UN observers?

if you support hezbollah it means you condone an organization that launches terrorist activities targeted at cilvilians, calls for the complete destruction of israel, calls on its youth to become martyrs, wants to impose islamic law (and all the great things that come with it, like abuse of women), and has many more such “enlightened” agenda.

Kay said,

July 31, 2006 @

I agree, the most important part of this dilemma is to understand its history, why this region is the way it is and how can it ever achieve peace. Israel has been forceful in her actions and large mistakes such as Quana have been made. But Israel is not fighting a war she can afford to loose.

Israel has never lost a war and the first war it looses will mean no more Israel. Yes, Israel has a stronger military and a much better fighting capability than Hezbollah but look at a map and then let’s talk about advantages. Hezbollah is surrounded by arab countries that have the capability to push Israel right into the sea. You can say Israel is aggressive and too powerful but does she have a choice? This is a war and like every war Israel faces it is a war of existance. After all isn’t that what Hezbollah and all the other terrorists regimes want, Israel, the state that they have NEVER recognized since 1948 pushed right into the sea?

If the Indians came back to America and refused to stop bombing our pizza stores and street corners until we all left the country I wonder what the US government, or any government for that matter would do. Do you think they would sit through years of never ended peace talks with Indians who continuously violated their side of the deal and continuously targeted American civilians? Do you think they would give back land (which Israel has done)?? Do you think they would trust negoting with rich Indian leaders that allow their people to suffer and blow themselves up thinking they are martyrs for the cause, that they somehow are helping the situation?? What kind of “leaders” would the US be dealing with? Now take one peice of America, a piece the size of New Jeresey, and surround it by several Indian countries and then decide what choice Israel has.

avneron said,

July 31, 2006 @

i don’t think the hezbollah represents a threat to israel’s existence, but it has the ability to bring life in the north of israel to a halt (and maybe with some support from iran and syria they can affect central israel).

israel can not live with hezbollah on its borders, since hezbollah proved that it is not a theoretical threat, but rather a real one. so israel (and i would argue the west) must find a way to resolve this situation and guarantee its safety.

MAK said,

August 1, 2006 @

There is a reason why there is international comdemnation of Israels actions, they are not proportionate of someone interested in minimising casualties, the Qana case proves this as well as the bombing the UN post. In fact, very few people can really believe this has anything to do with the captured solidiers.

If they wanted the soldier back they could have traded hostages which is what Hizbollah wanted all along, Israel has 9000 hostages detained without trial or charge.

Israel does not seem interested in international relations while it knows it has America’s unwavering support and has continued antagonistic policies even in times of relative peace.

A quote from the News Statesman- the war on children

“Hamas refused to play this Machiavellian game and in the face of Israeli assaults maintained a ceasefire for 18 months. The objective of the Israeli attack on the beach at Gaza was clearly to sabotage the ceasefire. This is a time-honoured tactic.”

A quote from Norman Finklestein:

“So let’s turn to the issue that Josh wants to address, namely the context. I’m very happy to do so. Let’s look at the context. Since Israel withdrew from Gaza in September 2005 ‘til today, the estimates run between 7,000 and 9,000 heavy artillery shells have been shot and fired into Gaza. On the Palestinian side, the estimates are approximately 1,000 Kassam missiles, crude missiles, have been fired into Israel. So we have a ratio of between seven and nine to one…

…Yoram Dinstein, who’s one of the leading international experts on these matters; he says, “There’s no difference whatsoever between intentionally targeting civilians and indiscriminately firing into a civilian crowd.” ”

To claim that Israel tries to avoid targetting civilians after they shelled a beach full of families picking is rediculous

tsella said,

August 1, 2006 @

your mom is too stereotypical, and patronizing to muslims, at least as bad as the first two commenters. “many WESTERN educated, moderate muslims and there are more of them than the extremists”. this is so typical a misunderstanding from the “of we are so moral” westerners.
you think they want your education? your moderation? your mcdonalds? this is the first thing they go AGAINST. they don’t want your culture. there is no honour in it, no true faith.
seriously, when is the last time you listened to any of their preachers and leaders (not all, but certainly in the parties involved in conflict)?

this is a clash of civilizations, make no mistake. israel is in it mostly in it so the imam and can keep the hatred focused between he’s disciples. you see, hatred is a very binding force.

tsella said,

August 1, 2006 @

MAK, seriously, “proportionate”? who said war has to be proportionate? would your country be “proportionate” in its response, or would you have accepted its “proportionate” response, if borders, especially ones given back to the other side unilaterally in hope for a better tomorrow, were crossed daily by gunfire, missile (be they crude as they were – if you have any doubt they would have used better armament, just look at hezbollah), and suicide bombers?

look, i’m left-wing, peace seeking in my beliefs, but damn hezbollah and hamas, they have proved me wrong so many time. there will not be peace if there is a single remaining man of them alive.

when have you last heard any of them say they’re sorry for civilian causalities, or conduct an investigation (for the purpose of understanding the mistake in killing so MANY, not so FEW)?

israel is being too fair and moral, and that is how i want it to be, giving notifications to civilians in general, or specifically with two hours phone calls to designated target buildings with munitions, only to find out the “civilians” are calling in hezbollah to take out the munitions.

the 9000 hostages – you think these are nice people? that israel is walking the streets and collecting civilians into custody? these are people who are directly related to terrorist activities. look who hezbollah primarily wants israel to free, samir kuntar. israel has made releases time and time again, only to find itself under attack again, and kidnapping becoming the modus operandi for these terrorists. releasing even a single prisoner for the three soldiers would be a dire mistake. release should be done only after a comprehensive long term peace agreement for the region.

the truly dis-“proportionate” are the media – when was the last time the media had coverage of the almost daily shelling in israel? when did the media last show you the setups made by palestinians and hezbollah to get the better photo op? don’t you find it strange everybody is reporting how severed lebanon is, and noone can reach in or out, yet the media coverage is constantly renewed with new “materials”.

MAK said,

August 1, 2006 @

Tsella,

There are many double standards, errors and simply blatant lies in your last comment.

1. The international community is not concerned about using overwhelming force to target Hizbollah, however what is clear to everyone is that Israel is using overwhelming forces to target everyone, even UN buildings. Even Kofi Annan pointed it out that the targetting was deliberate, largely because it is specualted that Israel does not want UN observers in this conflict.

“The bunkers are big white things - you can see them for miles and they are lit up at night,” a UN source said.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/07/27/wmid327.xml

2. Israel never gave back the settlement in hopes of peace, it was in an attempt to further illegally gain more land. Israel built two illegal settlements, it withdrew from one settlement in exchange for making the other settlement legal, peace had nothing to with it. In fact in the settlement it withdrew from, it would keep thousands of Palestinians under curfew for a few Jewish settlers who would shoot at Palestinain children.

3. Israel being too fair and moral, by what concievable standards, they are the hugest violators of UN resolutions, they would have been condemed several times by the UN if America had not vetoed, to state the obvious- they bomded a UN protected area in Qana and shelled families on a beach, none of these were accidents.

4. to the Lebanese, an Israelli soldier is not a nice person, Israel took 9000 lebanese hostages. If the hostages “weren’t nice people” they could at least be charged, but Israel is not interested in whether they are innocent, they are hostages, Israel is the only country in the world to ever have legalised hostage taking.

5. The media being biased is typical ‘the world is anti-semetic’ rubbish, look at the numbers being killed and look at how many shells Israel is firing (excluding the bombing) almost ten times more and yet the media still insist on giving 50:50 coverage

Alex said,

August 1, 2006 @

Actually Israel has lost a war. they invaded southern lebanon in 1982 and stayed there until hizbullah kicked them out…hizbullahs the only people who have shown that they can beat israel, even with u.s. bombs being shipped to them everyday…thats why so many people support them. and because hizbullah has built hospitals schools, and taken care of all of the inhabitants of southern lebanon for hte past 20 years.

itai said,

August 2, 2006 @

I have to ask a few questions nobody brought up:
1. How come Lebanon doesn’t publish the details of those “800″ dead civilians?

2. When 27 children died in Qana everybody in the world saw those horrific pictures. How come that there were no pictures published of the HUNDREDS of dead children Lebanon claims that died in Beirut and other bombings? Could it be that the Lebanese government exagerates or LIES?

3. International red cross counted 35 bodies in Qana. How come the media say 60?

itai said,

August 2, 2006 @

Firas, we don’t accept that equation. If 6 million Jews will die in Israel we’ll use our thermonuclear weapons to kill 200 million Arabs and make the whole middle east glow in the dark and eat the fallout so forget this bullshit.

MAK, Israel doesn’t hold 9,000 Lebanese prisoners. The most celebrated prisoner in Palestine and Lebanon is samir kuntar. In 1979 he entered an appartment in Naharya. He killed 3 of Haran family members. He kidnapped the father and his 4 years old girl and took them down to the beach. When sorrounded by the police he shot the father in front of the girl and crashed her skull with his rifle butt. This is who Lebanon started this war for.

your mom said,

August 2, 2006 @

I’m sorry, tsella, you’re right that was highly stereotypical and kind of arrogant. What I meant was there are MORE Muslims who want peace and do not want the extermination of the West and its culture than there are extremists.
Israel is not used as a symbol for a clash of civilizations or whathaveyou. It is the enemy of many Arab states because of its actions toward Arabs in Israel and its policies toward its neighbors. Israel was created as a Zionist state, an experiment so to say. Look up what Zionism is about and their works before WWII, during WWII, and then when Israel was created. This is the most racist, arrogant ideology that I’m sorry to say has the equivalence to Hitler’s ideology of the superiority of the Aryans. Just as racist and just as ruthless in its goal to annihilate others in their way. Just google what Israel, the continuous victim, has done to the Palestinian people and what they did in lebanon since its creation. Arabs did not hate Jews before the creation of Israel. It was Zionist Jews they hated because Zionist Jews wanted to expel Arabs out of the land that is now Israel, Gaza, and the West Bank. Read about what the King of Jordan said in 1947 about his concerns about the actions the Zionist Jews were taking. Oh the Arabs can push them into the sea if Hezballah wins…. right, if they could do it, they wouldn’t need Hezballah to defeat Israel to do it.
You want to really see where the popularity of these extremist Muslim ideas are coming from? There are several factors but one includes the way the West has treated this region. The U.S. preach that they want to bring democracy but they prop up governments that the people in those countries hate because they are inefficient and corrupt. Islamist groups gain support through providing things like welfare and schools that these corrupt governments do not provide for these poor people. I can go on and on about this especially about Egypt but I won’t.
Israel sending leaflets out then bombing the shit out of them shows me it was for show. So the world will see or rather people like you will t hink the righteous Israeli government warned the people to flee before they began bombing so they wanted to minimize civilian casualties. Now explain to me how in 2 minutes how fast people can flee away from a city? Oh now let’s not forget what the leaflets said they warned not to take motorcycles, trucks, vans, anything that can be mistaken as containing weapons or able to fire missiles from and they may be fired upon. Yea, that is a great show of mercy to the Lebanese people. Basically get as far away from the region on foot???
I support Hezballah for what it has done for their people just as what Alex said they do. I do not support Israel because they are a fascist government that actively practice apartheid that apparantly everyone ignores. I do not believe that Israel should have been created because it was created for the wrong reasons but it’s here and people, governments must learn to accept that and go from there. Israel, however, does not want peace with its neighbors, it wants them all GONE or utterly defeated. They do not want peace. Apparantly, neither does the U.S.

Actually there were pictures of children dead before. I don’t know if they changed the website since I last saw it (a week or two ago) but it was disgusting. Israeli girls signing on the missiles that would be used to bomb the shit out of Lebanon. http://www.fromisraeltolebanon.org. Israel are withholding 9000 Palestinians and an unknown number of Lebanese in prisons without charge, trial, or past their sentence.You can google that information too.
To say this conflict is because of one prisoner is wrong. It so obviously is much more than that.

avneron said,

August 2, 2006 @

Mak,

1. It is true that the UN building is very easy to identify. A Canadian UN soldier that was killed in the attack told his family a few hours before he was killed that hezbollah is shooting rockets from nearby the UN bunker on purpose to attract israeli fire.

again what do you think israel gains from killing UN observers?

2. i don’t understand your point about the israeli settlements. israel pulled out of Gaza completely and did not annex any land in return. on the contrary it said it will pull out from additional territory in the west bank.

shortly after israel pulled out rockets started to be fired from Gaza targeting israeli cities within range. the israeli army retaliated by firing back and trying to destroy the rocket launchers.

3. the UN is not an unbiased organization. the arab countries can call for the condemnation of israel whenever they want. the only way to balance the reality of bias against israel is for the US to use its veto right.

4. there are very few lebanese prisoners in israel. the 9,000 number is referring to palestinians. the are only very few hezbollah prisoners (less than 20 i believe), all of them are terrorists with “blood on their hands”.

5. i don’t think the ratio of ammunition used to media coverage is relevant in any case. the media should present the facts and provide an outlet for the two sides to make their arguments, and i believe this is appropriate.

avneron said,

August 2, 2006 @

your mom,

i think you are relying to much on google/intertnet as your source of information about jews, zionists, the middle-east. the fact that someone wrote something on a web page does not make it true. your comments included wrong facts (e.g. 9,000 prisoners without trial, telling lebanese to leave on foot, israel being a fascist government, and much more), and some antisemitic propaganda (e.g. zionists looking to annihilate everything in their way, zionists looking to destroy all the arabs around them)

i think more than being misinformed you are full of hate. i recommend taking more strolls on the beach/woods/mountains, yoga, and spending serious time exploring with yourself where all this hatred comes from.  — my guess based on your nickname that it will be a good use of your time to focus on issues relating to your mother

your mom said,

August 2, 2006 @

Actually…
When referring to Zionism, it is not full of hate it is DISGUST. big difference. Their ideology is not one of tolerance. I am criticizing it and if you don’t believe me look it up yourself and prove me wrong w/ facts not just sitting there telling me it’s propaganda.
First of all, my sources are varied and reliable such as Amnesty International and The Herald. I also have several books I can recommend you that are written by prominent professors in this country. I happen to study the region and its history and I haven’t googled anything. I was just trying to suggest an easy source for others to find information as well. There is in fact 9,000 Palestinian prisoners, did I not ask you to look up these facts yourself? I did not say the Israeli government told the Lebanese people to leave on foot but were severely restricting transportation they could take to hightail it out of there. It’s called sarcasm. And I love how my criticizing an IDEOLOGY not Judaism is anti-semitic. Anything from criticizing the Israeli government to criticizing an ideology that most people recognize as an intolerable ideology that a group of Jewish people thought up is called anti-semitism. Israel isn’t a fascist government? Well they sure as hell isn’t the great democracy they so proudly claim to be. You want facts, let me know. I don’t get my facts from some random webpage someone put up to add propaganda, if it is from online sources they are from humanitarian organizations, government websites, and news sites.

I don’t hate anyone or anything and my name is some random thing I thought up. I couldn’t think of a creative one and I say it randomly to people. While I take my strolls on the beach, I suggest you start reading about this whole conflict mess from BOTH sides and those on neither side who are just observing and documenting and the history before you start accusing me of being misinformed. It might take awhile.
Thanks oh so much for attacking me when you don’t even know who I am. Hoorah for free debate. if that is what you call it, personal attacks grounded on nothing instead of arguing rationally with facts.

avneron said,

August 2, 2006 @

your mom,

maybe i was too quick to judge you as bigot and antisemitic.

what do you think is the zionist ideology and agenda? and who is following this supposed ideology and agenda? how is israel a fascist state?

in your balanced, researched and unbiased view of the world you chose to support hezbollah. have you looked into the ideology of that organization? hamas and hezbollah build hospitals and religious schools, but they do very little to promote progress for the population. they spend much more money on weapons. why does the hezbollah need to spend anything on rockets? building bunkers? how does this help the people of lebanon?

what do you think israel wants from lebanon?

if there are specific sources of information you rely on please share them with me. i’ll be happy to read and tell you what i think.

itai said,

August 2, 2006 @

your mom Said, you sound like a person for whom tolerance is very important indeed…

I agree with avneron, he wasn’t too quick to judge you. You are full of hate and you are an anti-semite even if you cover it as anti-zionist or anti-israeli. And you are completely ignorant as far as the region’s history is concerned. If you support hezbollah you are certainly an antisemite. Nasrallah said in a speech for example that he’s happy the Jews are congregated in Israel because it will be easier to kill them that way. I suggest you take a look at what they broadcast on their tv station al-manar, pure hate and anti-semitism.

MAK said,

August 3, 2006 @

It could easily be said that supporting Israel means you are anti-arab or anti-Palestinian. We can all say the other needs to do their research but the point is we all ahve done research and we have to present the facts and findings in forums of debate without stringing lines like if you support Hizbollah, you are anti-semetic, we all know the conflict is not as simple as that. It is possible that you agree with the actions of a particular group only in particular scenarios e.g. I do not expect those supporting Israel to agree with the following statements

We must expel Arabs and take their places.”
– David Ben Gurion, 1937, Ben Gurion and the Palestine Arabs, Oxford University Press, 1985.

“We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population.”
– David Ben-Gurion, May 1948, to the General Staff. From Ben-Gurion, A Biography, by Michael Ben-Zohar, Delacorte, New York 1978.

“There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?”
– Quoted by Nahum Goldmann in Le Paraddoxe Juif (The Jewish Paradox), pp. 121-122.

“Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist. Not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushua in the place of Tal al-Shuman. There is not a single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population.”
– David Ben Gurion, quoted in The Jewish Paradox, by Nahum Goldmann, Weidenfeld and Nicolson, 1978, p. 99.

“Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves … politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves… The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country.”
– David Ben Gurion, quoted on pp 91-2 of Chomsky’s Fateful Triangle, which appears in Simha Flapan’s “Zionism and the Palestinians pp 141-2 citing a 1938 speech.

“If I knew that it was possible to save all the children of Germany by transporting them to England, and only half by transferring them to the Land of Israel, I would choose the latter, for before us lies not only the numbers of these children but the historical reckoning of the people of Israel.”
– David Ben-Gurion (Quoted on pp 855-56 in Shabtai Teveth’s Ben-Gurion in a slightly different translation).
——————————————————————————–

Golda Meir
Prime Minister of Israel
1969 - 1974

“There is no such thing as a Palestinian people… It is not as if we came and threw them out and took their country. They didn’t exist.”
– Golda Meir, statement to The Sunday Times, 15 June, 1969.

“How can we return the occupied territories? There is nobody to return them to.”
– Golda Meir, March 8, 1969.

“Any one who speaks in favor of bringing the Arab refugees back must also say how he expects to take the responsibility for it, if he is interested in the state of Israel. It is better that things are stated clearly and plainly: We shall not let this happen.”
– Golda Meir, 1961, in a speech to the Knesset, reported in Ner, October 1961

“This country exists as the fulfillment of a promise made by God Himself. It would be ridiculous to ask it to account for its legitimacy.”
– Golda Meir, Le Monde, 15 October 1971
——————————————————————————–

Yitzhak Rabin
Prime Minister of Israel
1974 - 1977,
1992 - 1995

“We walked outside, Ben-Gurion accompanying us. Allon repeated his question, What is to be done with the Palestinian population?’ Ben-Gurion waved his hand in a gesture which said ‘Drive them out!”
– Yitzhak Rabin, leaked censored version of Rabin memoirs, published in the New York Times, 23 October 1979.

“[Israel will] create in the course of the next 10 or 20 years conditions which would attract natural and voluntary migration of the refugees from the Gaza Strip and the west Bank to Jordan. To achieve this we have to come to agreement with King Hussein and not with Yasser Arafat.”
– Yitzhak Rabin (a “Prince of Peace” by Clinton’s standards), explaining his method of ethnically cleansing the occupied land without stirring a world outcry. (Quoted in David Shipler in the New York Times, 04/04/1983 citing Meir Cohen’s remarks to the Knesset’s foreign affairs and defense committee on March 16.)

——————————————————————————–

Menachem Begin
Prime Minister of Israel
1977 - 1983

“[The Palestinians] are beasts walking on two legs.”

– Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin, speech to the Knesset, quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk, “Begin and the ‘Beasts,”‘ New Statesman, June 25, 1982.

“The Partition of Palestine is illegal. It will never be recognized …. Jerusalem was and will for ever be our capital. Eretz Israel will be restored to the people of Israel. All of it. And for Ever.”
– Menachem Begin, the day after the U.N. vote to partition Palestine.

——————————————————————————–

Yizhak Shamir
Prime Minister of Israel
1983 - 1984,
1986 - 1992

“The past leaders of our movement left us a clear message to keep Eretz Israel from the Sea to the River Jordan for future generations, for the mass aliya (=Jewish immigration), and for the Jewish people, all of whom will be gathered into this country.”
– Former Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir declares at a Tel Aviv memorial service for former Likud leaders, November 1990. Jerusalem Domestic Radio Service.

“The settlement of the Land of Israel is the essence of Zionism. Without settlement, we will not fulfill Zionism. It’s that simple.”
– Yitzhak Shamir, Maariv, 02/21/1997.

“(The Palestinians) would be crushed like grasshoppers … heads smashed against the boulders and walls.”
– Isreali Prime Minister (at the time) Yitzhak Shamir in a speech to Jewish settlers New York Times April 1, 1988

——————————————————————————–

Benjamin Netanyahu
Prime Minister of Israel
1996 - 1999

“Israel should have exploited the repression of the demonstrations in China, when world attention focused on that country, to carry out mass expulsions among the Arabs of the territories.”
– Benyamin Netanyahu, then Israeli Deputy Foreign Minister, former Prime Minister of Israel, speaking to students at Bar Ilan University, from the Israeli journal Hotam, November 24, 1989.

——————————————————————————–

Ehud Barak
Prime Minister of Israel
1999 - 2001

“The Palestinians are like crocodiles, the more you give them meat, they want more”….
– Ehud Barak, Prime Minister of Israel at the time - August 28, 2000. Reported in the Jerusalem Post August 30, 2000

“If we thought that instead of 200 Palestinian fatalities, 2,000 dead would put an end to the fighting at a stroke, we would use much more force….”
– Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak, quoted in Associated Press, November 16, 2000.

“I would have joined a terrorist organization.”
– Ehud Barak’s response to Gideon Levy, a columnist for the Ha’aretz newspaper, when Barak was asked what he would have done if he had been born a Palestinian.

——————————————————————————–

Ariel Sharon
Prime Minister of Israel
2001 - present

“It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is that there is no Zionism, colonialization, or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands.”

– Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of militants from the extreme right-wing Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, November 15, 1998.

“Everybody has to move, run and grab as many (Palestinian) hilltops as they can to enlarge the (Jewish) settlements because everything we take now will stay ours…Everything we don’t grab will go to them.”
– Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of the Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, Nov. 15, 1998.

“Israel may have the right to put others on trial, but certainly no one has the right to put the Jewish people and the State of Israel on trial.”

– Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, 25 March, 2001 quoted in BBC News Online

itai said,

August 3, 2006 @

MAK, this is a conventional copy-paste comment spread across the web. Did you bother to check its integrity?

As for the body count, I just dropped in to tell I told you so. A miracle happened 29 people came back to life in Qana. Check the final report of the red cross. I stand behind what I said: The Lebanese government lies about civilian casualties. If not we would have seen hundreds of films of dead women and children already. The intl. press doesn’t bother to confront them about this and demand the details.

The Lebanese also lie about the damages to Beirut. This was posted by a Lebanese in order to prove that Beirut was “destroyed”. Taken from an Arab website:
http://arabist.net/archives/2006/08/02/beiruts-southern-suburbs/

Look at the pictures again. See how accurate and concentrated the bombings are. I counted 9 blocks who were taken out. Probably 1%-3% of Beirut’s urban area. This was HZA area, accesible only to HZA and thier families. And even when attacking this military target the air force warned them in advance that it’s going to bomb it.

avneron said,

August 3, 2006 @

MAK,

some of these quotes i saw in the past.
some i did not.
and i don’t know with regard to the accuracy of them

i can tell you that with regard to the more recent quotes, many of them, and i hate to use this sentence, have been taken out of context.

but in any case these quotes do not prove much with regard to your assertion of a zionist plot. and your disgust with zionism. today being a zionist means that you support the existance of israel, and as a jew involve yourself in activities to support israel. what is disgusting about it? the people who live in israel and were born there, don’t even think of them as zionist, they just want to continue to live safely in the country where they were born.

israel is not a saint. it has made mistakes, it was arrogant and it achieved its independence by force. this is not different from the history of many countries.

the arabs are no saints either. many of them still do not recognize the right of israel to exist (hamas, hezbollah, syria, iran and others), and would like to destroy it. rather than move on to solve the problems of the arab people the cynical leaders of the arab world are focusing all of their attention on fighting israel.

no body is going to win the “who started it first” and “i was here before you” arguments. it is going back thousands of years now. the question is how do you handle today’s reality.

is israel the aggressor in lebanon? what do you think israel wants from lebanon? what does israel gains by killing civilians?

why don’t you try to answer these questions?

your mom said,

August 4, 2006 @

Ok, MAK and I are not the same person so stop lumping my opinions to that person and criticizing him for it.

Israel did not achieve independence by force those people who come from Europe and created Israel in a land that isn’t theirs is not achieving independence it’s imperialism. Zionism is a political ideology if you support the existence of Israel today fine but that does not mean you are a Zionist. My being an anti-Semite because I do not believe in this ideology is ridiculous and my being anti-Israeli government being an anti-semite is saying that my being anti-Bush means I am anti-American, which is damn ridiculous. I realize that you will probably resort to calling me that now since you have yet to counter my arguments with anything but names and my so called “hatred”.

this is the Zionist movement and you can not change what Zionism is with the changing of time that’s irrational.
“The dispossession and expulsion of a majority of Palestinians were the result of Zionist policies planned over a thirty-year period. Fundamentally, Zionism focused on two needs:

1. to attain a Jewish majority in Palestine;
2. to acquire statehood irrespective of the wishes of the indigenous population. Non-recognition of the political and national rights of the Palestinian people was a KEY Zionist policy.”

and there’s much more to it but I thought copying and pasting was kind of stupid so here’s the website to the rest of the article.
http://www.washington-report.org/html/focus.htm
if you think that the Washington report isn’t a reputable source let me know. I can find others that can not be disputed.

How are they taken out of context? How are words that expressly say that the expulsion of Arabs from the region is what they have to do to achieve Jewish dominance out of context??

let me TRY to answer those questions because you obviously can’t read between my lines properly. Israel is the agressor in lebanon, israel wants hezballah eliminated because it is the organization on its borders that shows they won’t put up with Israel’s bullshit. It isn’t about what Israel gains by killing civilians, what did Israel gain by senselessly killing and indiscriminately killing Palestinians? They do no CARE about the civilians, they hit their target and if a Hezballah militant is killed at the cost of several civilians they are fine with that and REJOICE in it. So please stop making Israel to be this righteous country that is constantly attacked just because it exists.

Another thing “who started it first” and “i was here before you” arguments are ridiculous but it does NOT go back thousands of years. It started when European Jews wanted the Palestinian land. European Jews were NEVER there. Period.

avneron said,

August 4, 2006 @

your mom,

with regard to anti-zionism=antisemitism:
it may not be the case with you, but it is indeed the case of many others. in a world where it is not politically correct to be an out-right racist, falling back to a rational argument (i.e. “israel is a fascist country”, “israel is an apartheid state”, etc.) is a convenient excuse.

antisemitism didn’t disappear at the end of WWII. it was embedded into the european mindset for centuries, and old-habits die hard.

with regard to the essence of zionism:
jews have been living in the land of israel for thousands of years. hundreds of thousands of jews were living in israel at the on the 20th century (about the same number as arabs). immigration of jews to israel driven by modern zionism started in 1882 with eastern european jews, and continued in several waves between 1882 and 1945.

so as you can see the modern jewish immigration started during the ottoman regime and continued through the british mandate.

the jews and the arabs in palestine have been clashing all along. there were peaks of violence between the two.

at the time there was no such thing as a “palestinian people” in the same way that there was no jordanians, syrians,iraqis, or lebanese (these countries like israel did not exist). after WWI the french and the british divided middle-east drawing maps and creating countries.

jews in europe facing increasing antisemitism were basically divided into 3 groups: those who migrated to america, those who chose to stay in europe and hope that the wave of hatred will pass, and those who recognized that the only way to guarantee a safe existence for the jews was to create a jewish state (zionists).

different options were considered and the land of israel was chosen because of its historic role in the life of the jewish people, the fact that there was already a significant jewish population living there and a relatively small indigenous population.

the arab lands that were settled by jews prior to 1948 were bought legally from arab owners.

during WWII and after it ended jews immigrated to israel illegaly, since the british government did not allow them to enter the country. at 1948 when israel was etablished following a UN the arab states surrounding israel attacked, trying to destory the new state (most of the arab leader supported the nazis, too).

during that war many arabs that lived within the borders of israel left their homes. some willingly and some unwillingly. these refugees were not welcomed by the arab countries and many of them still live in refugee camps.

israel is not immune to making mistakes and has done immoral things in its past, like every other democracy and every other country.

and like it or not, time does play a role. rhetoric and behavior that was acceptable in the past, is not acceptable today.

the source that your provided is a known antisemitic and pro-arab publication. i believe it was them who claimed that the number of jews that were murdered in the holocaust should be cut in-half at least.

if this is indicative to sources from which you get your information than no wonder you hold these positions.

now with regard to the hezbollah and the current conflict:
- hezbollah attacked israel unprovoked. crossing international recognized border killing and kidnapping soldiers. i don’t know how you can support this action?

- israel wants hezbollah disarmed (consistent with UN resolution 1559) because it is an illegal militia armed by iran, calling for the destruction of israel, and firing rockets into israeli towns unprovoked (it did so even before the current conflict, just in a much lower frequency)

- what do you mean by “senselessly killing and indiscriminately killing Palestinians”? this is yet another absurd claim. israel is in conflict with the palestinians and it occupies much of their land (which i believe it should mostly give back), but it by no means senselessly killing.

- where do you see israelis rejoicing by the death of civilians? maybe, maybe, you can find a handful of extremists by i doubt it. on the other hand after 9/11 Palestinians went out to the street to celebrate. when suicide bombers carry out their missions successfully palestinians are giving away candies in the street.

i am sorry to say it yet again.
but you are misinformed.
you rely on a fringe racist information source.
and you are repeating senseless claims that show a strong emotional bias (using words like disgust and believing israelis rejoice when civilians are killed). baseless, uninformed, and yes, racist.

your mom said,

August 4, 2006 @

ok because doing this whole online thing is wasting my time. Claiming that Jewish faced harsh discrimination so they should get their own land is absurd. Should every oppressed ppls get their own land in which they have historical ties to? Historical as in thousands of years ago. Second, the land was populated MOSTLY of Jews before the creation of Israel? I beg to differ. Of course you would say any publication that doesn’t agree with your beliefs is biased and such. You have yet to show me the credible sources to counter my arguments. Just spitting information out that you very well am repeating from whoever you heard it from. Second, Hezballah did not have to cross into Israeli borders to kidnap those soldiers, they were on Lebanese soil.
Hezballah has been at war as far as they concerned since the occupation of Lebanon by Israel. When the conflict “ended”, Hezballah demanded their prisoners back and Israel refused. This was also unlawful but does anyone talk about that? Oh no, the all-righteous Israel does no wrong, they are victims in every situation. So firing rockets into Israeli towns are not unprovoked as far as they are concerned Israel refused to end the war by refusing to return the Lebanese prisoners.
second this source did not say that so stop lying online.
But anyway your whole historical story is just that a story. There are many flaws that I wish I had time to point out but w/e. My friends want me to stop talking to 12 year olds who do not know what they are talking about… so you can respond and feel like you are right if you want. Only thank you for letting me know just how weak the arguments are from the other side. You’ve enlightened me.
Peace.

avneron said,

August 5, 2006 @

your mom,

pick up any credible peer-reviewed history book about the region and the time and you’ll get the same facts.

if you want to read more accessible works you are welcomed to read Thomas Friedman (”from beirut to jerusalem”), Bernard Lewis (”the middle east”).

zionism is a typical 19th century nationalist movement. your disgust of it tells more about you than about the movement.

- israel does not occupy any lebanese soil.
- israel has returned all lebanse prisoners in 2004, except for 4 terrorist (look at my pervious post about Samir Kuntar if you want to know who israel is still holding)

keep on reading anti-semite publications if you enjoy them, but at least be honest with yourself and admit you hate jews.

avneron said,

August 5, 2006 @

your mom,

i see that you are an american.

what do you think of the genocide of the native americans by the european immigrants?

what about the slavery and segregation?

what about the occupation of hawaii, us virgin islands, guam, puerto rico?

what about the land that was taken by force from the mexicans?

according to your logic you should be disgusted with the US, and support mexicans firing rockets at US cities and conducting terroist activities to end the US occupation of their land.

Ceremony: Remixes and Rarities said,

June 6, 2007 @

Ceremony: Remixes and Rarities…

news…

Collection said,

June 8, 2007 @

Collection…

news…

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